TDR Exclusive Interview: Maureen Mooney, Who Controls the Charter?

By A. S. Erickson | Sunday, November 18, 2007

Editor’s Note: Maureen Mooney represents Merrimack in the New Hampshire House of Representatives. She is introducing a bill that would overturn a law giving complete control of the College’s charter to Dartmouth. She is a Republican.

The Dartmouth Review: First question, just a little bit about the process–what is the process involved before your bill would become a law?

Representative Maureen Mooney: Okay, well, as for right now, my bill is what’s called an LSR–that stands for legislative service request—and it has a number, it’s currently LSR 2285. At this point, the deadline has passed for signing on to LSRs or withdrawing them, and as you may know, I signed on and gave my okay to the language in LSR 2285. I’ve gotten cosponsors, and at this time, what we’re waiting for is for the LSR to be issued a House bill number, and at that point it will be issued the number it will be printed, with the sponsor and the cosponsors and the language and so forth. It will be posted online and made available to the public; then, the deputy speaker will likely assign that bill to a House committee, and the hearing will be in either January or February of 2008 and that hearing is open to the public. Anybody is invited to come and weigh on either side of that House bill.

TDR: I noticed that one of your cosponsors was a Dartmouth alumnus. Do you mind giving me an idea of how many cosponsors you have, and how many, if any more, are Dartmouth alumni?

Mooney: Let me correct you. I don’t believe that any are Dartmouth alumni—

TDR: Okay.

Mooney: —of my cosponsors. Now, what I think you are referring to is Representative David Hess.

TDR: That’s right.

Mooney: Okay. Just for the record, he is not a cosponsor to my bill.

TDR: Okay.

Mooney: However, interesting story here—Dave Hess has been in the House for a long time. He is a Dartmouth alum; I believe he’s the Class of ‘64 or ‘65. He’s currently right now the deputy Republican leader in the New Hampshire House, which means he’s just under the minority leader in terms of Republican leadership in our caucus. Okay?

TDR: Okay.

Mooney: So he’s up there. Anyway, he was a cosponsor to the 2003 bill that passed and is now a law whereby spelling out that Dartmouth can amend its own charter.

TDR: Right.

Mooney: I had a talk with him—it really wasn’t a very long talk; he had heard I had a bill relative to Dartmouth’s charter at the request of several alumni that I’ve been in contact with, and he from other channels had heard from alumni in favor of this bill, and he told me without any, you know, persuasion from me, he said “Maureen, I’m going to support your bill.”

TDR: Right.

Mooney: I said “Wow,” I said, “well, that’s interesting, because you were a cosponsor back in 2003,” and he said, “Well, you know I’ve heard from enough people; I get the message, you know, clearly that I guess it wasn’t working,” and so forth. I mean, he can quote himself better than I can, but the bottom line is that he has done a complete turn, having been a cosponsor of the 2003 law and now he is the supporter of repealing it.

TDR: You talked about being in contact with numerous Dartmouth alumni.

Mooney: Mmhmm.

TDR: Are you willing to divulge who those alumni are?

Mooney: I don’t want to do that, and I don’t mind, you know, giving your number to them and so forth if you’d like me to and having them contact you that way. I hesitate only because, for a couple of reasons—first of all, there are so many at this point, and if I were just to name one, two, or three of them, I think that would put the burden on just one, two, or three people, when really it’s a group. Second of all, I don’t—you know, this is sort of a sensitive subject, when you’re talking about someone’s alma mater—and I certainly don’t want to be the one to wedge any sort of confrontation between a particular alum and their alma mater. They can do that if they so choose. But, in addition, there’s really no rush—I mean, the next action on this will be a public hearing, like I said, in the House committee, in either January or February, and you know, we’ll have people there, I’m sure, testifying on both sides of the issue and at that point, you know, they can carry the banner from there.

TDR: Have you spoken with any members of the Association of Alumni of Dartmouth College?

Mooney: The Association of Alumni...

TDR: They are the group currently suing the Board of Trustees.

Mooney: I have spoken with some.

TDR: Can you tell me who they are?

Mooney: Not at this time.

TDR: Okay.

Mooney: But let me check on that and I’ll get back to you. And also too, these alums, I know it seems mysterious and so forth—these alums have not told me to prevent their identity, it’s just that I myself personally don’t feel comfortable divulging names with regard to you know alma maters and so forth. So this is solely my doing, to conceal them–but again, I’ll let them know that you are interested in talking to them.

TDR: And one more question about who you’ve talked to—have you been contacted at all by any members of the Board or by employees of the College concerning your bill?

Mooney: Not to my knowledge.

TDR: Okay. As of right now, are you hopeful or optimistic about the chances of your bill?

Mooney: Yeah, I think it has a pretty good shot. Clearly, this is an issue that needs to be taken up, and it’s caused a tremendous stir, it’s gotten a tremendous amount of press, which surprises me, really. This is my third term in the House; I’ve put in probably close to a hundred bills maybe at this point or cosponsored them, and for a one-liner—that’s really all my bill is is a one-liner—it’s caused a tremendous amount of stir. Hearing Dave Hess’s take on it, I think that gives the bill tremendous promise, but we’ll see, you know? It’s like that with any bill, you just really don’t know, you don’t know what committee it’s going to go to, you don’t know what the committee is going to think about it. The issue is complex, there’s no question about it. It takes time to understand it, and its history, you know, goes pretty far back, so we’ll see. It’s hard to see in the House what happens.

TDR: Along those lines, along history, many believe that the 2003 law—the law that your law would repeal—

Mooney: Correct.

TDR: —simply codified the Dartmouth College v. Woodward Supreme Court case. Is that your understanding?

Mooney: Well it’s a good question. It could be, yes it could be, and from the conversations I’ve had, and as you can imagine, there’s been quite a few conversations, I didn’t just come up with this idea on my own, the timing of it seems odd. Let’s face it. I mean, the Dartmouth v. Woodward case came down in 1819, and now we have it being possibly codified in 2003—the timing seems a little funny.

TDR: If your bill does in fact become law and it’s challenged, as it most likely will be, do you have concerns about the constitutionality of it?

Mooney: I don’t, and that goes back to you know the research I’ve done on this and so forth, and the conversations that I’ve had. Dartmouth and New Hampshire have had a very interesting and a very unique relationship. Yes—in 1819, a Supreme Court decision said they could amend their own charter. Fine and dandy. But you saw, and I emailed you, some session laws—

TDR: Right.

Mooney: One passed in 1893, one passed in 1921, 1961, and 1967. All four were bills brought by legislators that became law that some form or another amended the Dartmouth charter. Now my question is, why? Why did that happen four times? Nobody can give me an answer. People have asked me, I say I don’t know, I’m looking for the same answer. The closest answer I’ve been given by somebody fairly close to Dartmouth is that it’s a “belt and suspenders” approach, whereby Dartmouth doesn’t have to ask the state for permission, but that’s just tradition, it’s just historic value, sort of like a courtesy thing for the long and expansive history that Dartmouth and New Hampshire have had together. So, that brings us to 2003. And then it further brings us to my bill. People—I’ve been reading editorials and so forth—are accusing my bill of bringing the relationship of Dartmouth and New Hampshire back to the year 1818, and that’s false. My bill would bring the Dartmouth/New Hampshire relationship back to the year 2002, just as it was before. If Dartmouth wants to come and ask permission, by all means. If they don’t, I don’t see anything that would prevent them from having to come forward asking the state’s permission to do anything. That’s all my bill does.

TDR: So along those lines, if the College doesn’t come and ask for permission, would you or any other legislators take any action?

Mooney: No, absolutely not.

TDR: So I guess the question is, what is the purpose of your bill?

Mooney: It’s to preserve the historic and traditional relationship that Dartmouth has had with the State of New Hampshire up until 2003, and some alums find that relationship—they cherish that relationship and want it to go back to that—and whether it has anything to do with the recent governance committee’s actions, I just don’t know. I don’t know. Maybe it is just a coincidence, I don’t know, it seems awfully funny—but bottom line is, there’s a significant group of alums out there who felt a lot more comfortable with the traditional Dartmouth.

TDR: You were quoted a couple weeks ago in The Dartmouth, the daily newspaper here on campus, as saying “some alumni, who I know, feel that the charter is not adequate in terms of giving alumni members on the Dartmouth Board of Trustees.”

Mooney: Mmhmm.

TDR: As it stands now, other than the ex officio members, all of the trustees are alumni of Dartmouth College. So I’m wondering what your quote is alluding to.

Mooney: Well, probably what that should have said was “adequate alumni representation.” Yes, I understand that all the trustees except for the ex officios are alums, and that’s great, but it seems as though the way the process is set up, and me as a complete outsider looking in, I see the arguments being made, and it does seem as though a significant group of alumni want to be adequately heard on their Board of Trustees.

TDR: If you don’t mind me asking, where did you go to school?

Mooney: Where did I go to college?

TDR: Yes, exactly.

Mooney: I went to the Thomas More College of Liberal Arts

TDR: And—

Mooney: Which, I might add, I am on their board of trustees. And, I also might add, I am also the chairman of their governance committee.

TDR: How does one go about getting on the Board of Trustees at said college?

Mooney: Thomas More was founded in 1978; it’s at a very early stage. It’s a very traditional Catholic liberal arts college, okay?

TDR: Okay.

Mooney: Okay. So obviously, it doesn’t have the pool of alumni that Dartmouth has. In a lot of ways, it’s making headway in terms of its committee structure and the direction it’s headed for, and it’s in a very, very early stage of its growth—let’s put it that way. So we don’t have nearly the significant, you know, problems, more or less I guess you could say, or issues that Dartmouth would have, because we just simply don’t have as many alumni—

TDR: I guess what I’m asking is, is there a proportion of your board that is elected by alumni to the Board?

Mooney: The answer is no.

TDR: No? Okay. Does the Board self-elect itself?

Mooney: Yes.

TDR: Okay.

Mooney: That might change. You understand again, we’re a very early college. I mean, you’re talking–this is what Dartmouth was in the 1700s. I mean I know at that time, I know there just weren’t many alumni to be on their board. You see? And this might change for Thomas More, but as of right now, no, alumni do not elect any members.

TDR: Another thing that has been raised here on campus is that a lot of people are a little perplexed—especially since you’re a Republican, since one of the basic Republican tenets is not to inject the state into the private sphere. It seems that your bill would be at odds with that. Your response?

Mooney: Well, that’s a very good point. Yes, of course, the Republican Party platform is very clear in terms of you know, keeping the government at a minimum, keeping it out of private corporations and private businesses and so forth. But again, Dartmouth is unique—it’s a unique scenario. Its history goes back to the 1700s. I don’t have quite all the history down pat, but from what I understand, the state has given Dartmouth College money; the state has given Dartmouth College land. The governor, the governor holds an automatic seat on Dartmouth’s Board of Trustees. At Thomas More College, we don’t have a public official with an automatic seat on our board. We’ve never been given huge grants from the state or land or anything even near or even close to that. So again, my bill and the whole premise is to preserve the unique historic and traditional relationship that Dartmouth College has had with the state of New Hampshire which is obviously a relationship that several alums cherish and feel that without that relationship, there could be a potential for abuse of power.

TDR: One last thing. It’s been remarked that a lot of people feel that you with your bill are doing the exact same thing that the board has done, mainly you’re changing the rules when things don’t go your way, or the people you’re representing’s way. What would you say to that?

Mooney: Well, you know what I would say to that is you could say the same thing about the 2003 bill that became a law. Was that put in because the particular group that put it in, you know, they weren’t getting their way, so they put that in? You know, speculation like that could be put on any bill, but it’s not the case. It’s a very straightforward bill, and I think it’s perfectly designed to do what it should do. And again, we’re seeing Dave Hess and we’re seeing alums really recognize how important this is for alumni and for the strength of Dartmouth College. This is all about strengthening Dartmouth College. It’s a cherished institution in New Hampshire, and you know I understand that people—you know, I guess you could say get upset and so forth—but it’s a piece of New Hampshire, I mean it’s been here longer than the state! I mean, it’s almost like New Hampshire grew around it. So we all have an interest in having it be maintained and strengthened and having all alumni feel as though they are being adequately represented on their Board. And we certainly appreciate all the students and alumni who come to Dartmouth College, who come to beautiful New Hampshire, to study the liberal arts and whatever else it is they choose to major in up in Hanover. And we’re very appreciative of that, and when we hear that several alumni are troubled by what’s going on, it’s no wonder that myself and cosponsors and Dave Hess want to jump in and try to rectify the situation.

TDR: You keep mentioning that your bill will strengthen the College. Can you give me some specific examples of ways that—

Mooney: History, history, traditional value, you know? And additionally, you know, what the governance committee did in September, with adding more trustees and so forth, my bill doesn’t affect that at all. That will continue, because that was done within the window of 2003 and if my bill were to pass next year. So that’s, you know, not an issue at all, but it’s getting back to the year 2002, when there was an amicable relationship between the two, and that’s what it’s all about.

TDR: Is the relationship between the state and Dartmouth not amicable now?

Mooney: Well, you wonder. You wonder why this 2003 law was proposed. I mean, what was that all about? Where did that come from? The last time the state amended Dartmouth’s charter was in 1967.

TDR: What I have heard most often is that most other institutions of our age, including the other Ivy League universities, don’t need to seek state permission, so that’s why Dartmouth went after the 2003 law. Is that not how you understand it?

Mooney: You want me to talk about Harvard and Yale and other institutions outside of New Hampshire?

TDR: Right.

Mooney: You know, I haven’t done any comparisons on those, and I don’t know, and I’m very curious to know. Because I know, for example, in the case of Princeton, the governor of New Jersey is an automatic board member, and I do wonder how their charter is amended and so forth, but I just don’t know the answer to that.

TDR: Okay. Well, Representative Mooney on behalf of The Dartmouth Review, thank you for your time.

Mooney: Well, thank you. n

TDR Exclusive Interview: Maureen Mooney, Who Controls the Charter?

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